The chief of a serious authorities union outlines their technique to battle Trump federal cuts—And says Elon Musk has ‘no clue’ about staff

The second Trump administration has been characterised largely by a targeted effort to chop down the variety of federal staff. 

By the Workplace of Personnel Administration and Elon Musk’s Division of Authorities Effectivity, the president has used extremely uncommon resignation gives and layoffs to shrink the workforce throughout businesses together with the Division of Training and the Division of Veterans Affairs. There’s no official quantity on how many individuals have been laid off, however 62,530 authorities positions have been minimize to this point this yr, in keeping with information printed earlier this month from world outplacement agency Challenger, Grey, & Christmas. There are doubtless extra cuts to come back. 

Unions have performed a serious position in authorized challenges to the mass firing of federal staff. On Thursday, two separate rulings got here down ordering the Trump administration to reinstate these terminated staff. One ruling in response to twenty Democrat attorneys common calling for the reinstatement of fired staff got here from a federal decide in Maryland. The opposite was issued by a decide within the U.S. District Courtroom for the Northern District of California in response to a case introduced by dozens of labor unions and advocacy teams. U.S. District Choose William Alsup ordered that six federal businesses reinstate hundreds of probationary staff that had been fired below the steerage of OPM, a transfer he declared unlawful. The Trump administration has already filed an enchantment in that case. 

The American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Workers (AFSCME) was one of many plaintiffs in that second problem. The union represents 1.4 million public service staff throughout the nation in federal, state, and native authorities, in addition to the nonprofit sector. AFSCME’s president, Lee Saunders, spoke with Fortune concerning the risk that public sector staff are below, what his members are feeling, and the way the union plans to struggle again. 

This interview has been edited and condensed for readability.

Fortune: What are AFSCME members feeling proper now? 

President Saunders: They’re feeling below assault. They imagine within the significance of public companies, and but you see them being attacked each single day by this present administration. 

They’re frightened, however in addition they know that they have to make their voices heard and so they’ve received to struggle again, and that is precisely what they’re doing. Their union is supporting them 100% by speaking concerning the significance of public service, and difficult a number of the issues that this administration is doing, and whether or not it is within the courts, or whether or not it is within the media, or whether or not it is on the streets. We’re going to proceed to try this to make our level and get our level throughout.

AFSCME is likely one of the plaintiffs within the case which was simply dominated in favor of reinstating fired probationary federal staff. Many are seeing this as a win for federal staff, however that ruling doesn’t affect this week’s deadline set by the Trump administration requiring all businesses to ship the president and the OPM plans for extra layoffs. What might the long run appear to be for these staff? 

It is a large victory for these staff.

It is going to be challenged, however we’ll proceed to place the total power of the union behind submitting these sorts of lawsuits. That is actually vital, however we have additionally received to go on offense and never play protection on a regular basis, and we’ll proceed to try this. What we’re doing proper now’s organizing and mobilizing and educating our members throughout the nation by having cellphone calls, by going to city corridor conferences.

One of many issues that we have to do is proceed to prepare. Seventy p.c of Individuals imagine that unions are completely obligatory on this nation and 88% of younger individuals [view them favorably]. We’re going to spend assets, and we’ll be speaking to staff, asking them to be represented by us or different unions so that they have a seat on the desk. 

It seems like daily there’s a new growth associated to the DOGE layoffs. How would you advise individuals to maintain monitor of the whirlwind of actions?

I feel it is as much as AFSCME and the labor motion and our allies and pals to proceed to speak about what this administration is attempting to do to harm working individuals. We’ve received to enlist individuals inside the labor motion and outdoors the labor motion to make their voices heard. We can’t simply sit idly by and be silent when this destruction—and that is precisely what that is—is going down on the federal degree, [which will] roll all the way down to the state and native degree, with attainable large cuts in federal packages. State governments depend on federal cash to fund packages on the state degree; they get about 33% of [their revenue] from the federal authorities. That helps present public companies on the state, metropolis, and native degree. 

It’s all about persevering with to coach. It is all about asking [workers] to not be silent, however to make their voices heard and to struggle again like by no means earlier than. 

[When asked for comment, a spokesperson for the White House told Fortune: “President Trump returned to Washington with a mandate from the American people to bring about unprecedented change in our federal government to uproot waste, fraud, and abuse.”]

Elon Musk reposted a Tweet implying that public sector staff had been chargeable for mass murders below individuals like Hitler, Mao and Stalin. What do you make of this remark, and the assaults on public sector staff typically?

I’ll attempt to management my language, however… it’s a hateful remark for him to [retweet] that and examine our public sector staff and our members saying that “Hitler, Stalin and Mao didn’t murder millions, but [their] public sector service workers did.” Now simply take into consideration that. That’s the place he is coming from, and we have to get that message out. 

He has no clue what staff are confronted with each single day. He has no clue what they do to enhance the lives of our residents in our communities throughout the nation and to enhance upon public companies, but he makes an announcement like that. I imply, it’s unbelievable, and we have to ensure that individuals perceive that that is what he’s saying, and that is what of us on this administration imagine.

[Fortune reached out to Elon Musk but did not get a response.]

How can unions shield staff if the federal government needs to fireplace them?

We’re submitting these lawsuits—that is primary. We’re pushing although we perceive that the local weather right here in Washington, D.C. will not be the very best. However we’ve nonetheless received to proceed to go on the offense, as I stated earlier. We’re supporting the PRO Act, which might give staff the fitting to have a seat on the desk to enhance labor labor legislation on this nation. We’re doing the identical factor with the Public Freedom to Negotiate Act for public service staff.

We have now the flexibility to mobilize each single day—to mobilize union members, but in addition staff who aren’t in unions in our communities throughout the nation. As a result of that is impacting them too. The actions which might be being proposed have an effect on everybody that depends upon public companies: Medicaid, Medicare, Social Safety. All of those packages are below assault, and we have to do what we do greatest, and that is precisely what we’re doing.

This narrative in opposition to public sector staff has come on rapidly and strongly. How do you fight the emotions coming from these with large platforms like Trump and Musk?

It’s not solely federal staff. It truly is all staff. There’s an assault on all staff proper now. I suppose the best way that I can reply that query is that actuality is now hitting individuals within the face. I imply, they’re feeling it. Persons are being laid off indiscriminately. Persons are being fired. Their rights are being taken away from them. Providers that the American individuals relied upon are being minimize, and so they’re proposing to do much more injury. So I imply, this is the playbook that they talked about, and now they’re placing in an motion, and we have to ensure that individuals perceive the affect that it may have on them and their households. You have to react to it in a method the place we ask individuals to struggle again and to make their voices heard. You can’t sit by silently and watch this occur.

This story was initially featured on Fortune.com